Talk:Jats
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"Iranian" origin of Jats + "Zutt" in modern Iraq
[edit]I don't know which troll is editing this, but NO, Jats are NOT an "Iranian tribe".
Furthermore, there is practically nothing left of the Zutt people, those Indus pastoralists settled in 6th-11th century Iraq, so to imply that proper Jat clans live in modern Iraq is a lie! The most you can say is that there is still a district (Abu al-Khaseeb) named after them. But you should remember, as mentioned in the Zutt article itself, that Zutt was a generic exonym used by Arab chroniclers! Good luck trying to prove definitively that such-and-such Zutt is definitely a Jat. Heck, geneticists and historians argue that the Jats of Balochistan and Sindh aren't related to other Jats, so first focus on proving that!
Whoever is moderating this article, undo these edits and ban that troll. Forticus02 (talk) 21:05, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed. The article of the subject is the modern caste/community of Pakistan and India who speak various Indo-Aryan languages. Edits like these are not relevant to the topic, at max can be historical, but again subject to WP:CONSENSUS here. Note that the article before these changes, by and large reflected the consensus version. Pinging @Sitush, NitinMlk, Ekdalian, Fowler&fowler, and Utcursch:. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 14:06, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- All sorts of origins have been posited, Southern Russian, among them. But they are herders from the southern regions of Sind, that after migration north to the Punjab became non-elite tillers. The cantankerous editors on that page, do not like the word "non-elite" (commonly also applied to other tiller "castes" such as the Kurmi), so they keep imagining grand scenarios. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:29, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- Fylindfotberserk thanks for the ping. - NitinMlk (talk) 18:09, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- I completely agree with you, Fylindfotberserk. I have posted the notice related to South Asian social groups on the talk page of the concerned user! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 05:56, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
- Jats are Indic people, etymology of them is from the mahabharata era tribal coalition of the jartikas (जार्तिक) Cāṇakya (talk) 15:35, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Forum-y stuff
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== Sindhi Zutts are not the same as Punjabi Jatts = Theory Debunked They are the SAME Their is one big mistake with it. I am from sindh Karachi. Their are no Local sindhi Jatts all the Jatts in sindh are either from Pakistani Punjab Province or indian punjab that came here after partition. The Zutt which was mentioned by caliphate are a local Sindhi clan who still exists but are camel herders. I think their is a confusion here because of the same sound. Yaqub50 (talk) 13:07, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 January 2025
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Before changes of X valuation
[edit]The Jat people, also spelt Jaat and Jatt,[1] are a community of traditionally non-elite tillers and herders in Northern India and Pakistan.[a][b][c] Originally pastoralists in the lower Indus river-valley of Sindh, many Jats migrated north into the Punjab region in late medieval times, and subsequently into the Delhi Territory, northeastern Rajputana, and the western Gangetic Plain in the 17th and 18th centuries.[5][6][7] Of Hindu, Muslim and Sikh faiths, they are now found mostly in the Indian states of Punjab, Haryana, Uttar Pradesh and Rajasthan and the Pakistani regions of Sindh, Punjab and AJK.
After version of Y implementation
[edit]The Jat people, also spelt Jaat and Jatt,[8] are a traditionally agricultural community in Northern India and Pakistan.[9][10][11][d][e][f] Originally pastoralists in the lower Indus river-valley of Sindh, many Jats migrated north into the Punjab region in late medieval times, and subsequently into the Delhi Territory, northeastern Rajputana, and the western Gangetic Plain in the 17th and 18th centuries.[5][6][7] Of Hindu, Muslim and Sikh faiths, they are now found mostly in the Indian states of Punjab, Haryana, Uttar Pradesh and Rajasthan and the Pakistani regions of Sindh, Punjab and AJK.
Explanation for availing the Y insertion
[edit]This is in regard to the recent undiscussed changes to the longstanding consensus version of the lead's first sentence, which was introduced by Sitush in 2014 after a talk page discussion.
The longstanding "traditionally agricultural community in Northern India and Pakistan
" bit was changed to "traditionally non-elite tillers and herders in Northern India and Pakistan
", which is not even supported by the source cited for that description.[1] Fowler&fowler is using a POV summary about Indian Jats from a 1990s source,[2] and then they are extending that summary to Pakistani Jats by doing WP:OR/WP:SYN. If that wasn't enough, they have also included other WP:OR like 'traditionally herders', although that source doesn't summarise even Indian Jats like that. As if all of this wasn't enough, they are presenting that WP:OR to summarise all Jats in the very first sentence of the lead! Not to mention that the 21st Century scholarly/academic sources don't summarise Jats like that at all. So they should develop a consensus for their highly POV changes on the talk page first.
We use scholarly/academic WP:TERTIARY sources to know how a particular topic is summarised encyclopedically. As the present issue is about the lead's first sentence, the glossary entries and other succinct summaries in scholarly/academic tertiary/introductory books suit our purpose. Also, as the description involves how a community/caste is summarised/described currently, the sources from the 1990s or earlier are too outdated for this purpose. So I have extensively searched the 21st century, scholarly/academic tertiary/introductory books for that purpose. Unsurprisingly, they support the current consensus version, i.e. Jats are summarised in them as an agricultural community/caste or as a landowning agricultural community/caste. And none of them summarises Jats as traditionally non-elite tillers and herders
.
Here are the relevant sources summarising all Jats, rather than only Indian or Pakistani ones:
21st Century tertiary/introductory scholarly sources summarising Jats
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So the latest scholarship is describing Jats as 'agricultural community/caste', which Fowler&fowler weirdly described as "silly euphemism
" in their latest edit summary![2] But in reality, their own OR-based summary is missing from the scholarship. So I will reinsatte the longstanding consensus version of the lead's first sentence. They can obviously develop a new consensus here 49.204.142.89 (talk) 04:12, 25 January 2025 (UTC)
- ^ Hilary Metcalf, Heather Rolfe (2010). Caste discrimination and harassment in Great Britain (Report). National Institute of Economic and Social Research. p. v.
- ^ a b c Bayly, Susan (2001). Caste, Society and Politics in India from the Eighteenth Century to the Modern Age. Cambridge University Press. p. 385. ISBN 978-0-521-79842-6. Retrieved 15 October 2011. Cite error: The named reference "sbayly-p385" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
- ^ a b Bayly, Susan (2001). Caste, Society and Politics in India from the Eighteenth Century to the Modern Age. Cambridge University Press. p. 201. ISBN 978-0-521-79842-6. Retrieved 15 October 2011. Cite error: The named reference "sbayly-p201" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
- ^ a b Bayly, Susan (2001). Caste, Society and Politics in India from the Eighteenth Century to the Modern Age. Cambridge University Press. p. 212. ISBN 978-0-521-79842-6. Retrieved 15 October 2011. Cite error: The named reference "sbayly-p212" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
- ^ a b Cite error: The named reference
AsherTalbot2006-p269
was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ a b Khazanov, Anatoly M.; Wink, Andre (2012), Nomads in the Sedentary World, Routledge, p. 177, ISBN 978-1-136-12194-4, retrieved 15 August 2013 Quote: "Hiuen Tsang gave the following account of a numerous pastoral-nomadic population in seventh-century Sin-ti (Sind): 'By the side of the river..[of Sind], along the flat marshy lowlands for some thousand li, there are several hundreds of thousands [a very great many] families ..[which] give themselves exclusively to tending cattle and from this derive their livelihood. They have no masters, and whether men or women, have neither rich nor poor.' While they were left unnamed by the Chinese pilgrim, these same people of lower Sind were called Jats' or 'Jats of the wastes' by the Arab geographers. The Jats, as 'dromedary men.' were one of the chief pastoral-nomadic divisions at that time, with numerous subdivisions, .... Cite error: The named reference "KhazanovWink2012" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
- ^ a b Wink, André (2004), Indo-Islamic society: 14th – 15th centuries, BRILL, pp. 92–93, ISBN 978-90-04-13561-1, retrieved 15 August 2013 Quote: "In Sind, the breeding and grazing of sheep and buffaloes was the regular occupations of pastoral nomads in the lower country of the south, while the breeding of goats and camels was the dominant activity in the regions immediately to the east of the Kirthar range and between Multan and Mansura. The jats were one of the chief pastoral-nomadic divisions here in early-medieval times, and although some of these migrated as far as Iraq, they generally did not move over very long distances on a regular basis. Many jats migrated to the north, into the Panjab, and here, between the eleventh and sixteenth centuries, the once largely pastoral-nomadic Jat population was transformed into sedentary peasants. Some Jats continued to live in the thinly populated barr country between the five rivers of the Panjab, adopting a kind of transhumance, based on the herding of goats and camels. It seems that what happened to the jats is paradigmatic of most other pastoral and pastoral-nomadic populations in India in the sense that they became ever more closed in by an expanding sedentary-agricultural realm." Cite error: The named reference "Wink2004" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
- ^ Hilary Metcalf, Heather Rolfe (2010). Caste discrimination and harassment in Great Britain (Report). National Institute of Economic and Social Research. p. v.
- ^ Khanna, Sunil K. (2004). "Jat". In Ember, Carol R.; Ember, Melvin (eds.). Encyclopedia of Medical Anthropology: Health and Illness in the World's Cultures. Vol. 2. Kluwer Academic/Plenum Publishers. p. 777. ISBN 978-0-306-47754-6.
Notwithstanding social, linguistic, and religious diversity, the Jats are one of the major landowning agriculturalist communities in South Asia.
- ^ Nesbitt, Eleanor (2016). Sikhism: A Very Short Introduction (2nd ed.). Oxford University Press. p. 143. ISBN 978-0-19-874557-0.
Jat: Sikhs' largest zat, a hereditary land-owning community
- ^ Gould, Harold A. (2006) [2005]. "Glossary". Sikhs, Swamis, Students and Spies: The India Lobby in the United States, 1900–1946. SAGE Publications. p. 439. ISBN 978-0-7619-3480-6.
Jat: name of large agricultural caste centered in the undivided Punjab and western Uttar Pradesh
49.204.142.89 (talk) 05:37, 25 January 2025 (UTC)
- Jats are a widely described peasant caste. "Non-elite" is just an NPOV rewording of "peasant," which means, "class that tills the soil as small free landowners or hired laborers." (Webster's Unabridged).
- On Wikipedia, peasants are described as constituting three classes in the European middle ages.: non-free slaves, semi-free serfs, and free tenants." All are non-elite. Historians have used "peasant" for Jats in the Indian context. I'm happy to add that in the lead sentences. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:28, 25 January 2025 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 January 2025
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Add Lanhnda (western punjabi) to the languge section jats speak. WarriorBlood1 (talk) 15:21, 31 January 2025 (UTC)
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. JustSomeoneNo (talk) 17:26, 17 February 2025 (UTC)
Proposed Revision to Jat Classification and Reservation Status
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The current article states:
"Jats are classified as Other Backward Class (OBC) in seven of India's thirty-six States and UTs, namely Rajasthan, Himachal Pradesh, Delhi, Uttarakhand, Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh and Chhattisgarh. However, only the Jats of Rajasthan – excluding those of Bharatpur district and Dholpur district – are entitled to reservation of central government jobs under the OBC reservation."
The current wording does not explicitly mention that Jats are generally classified as a General (forward) caste in the central list, making the distinction between state and central classification unclear.
The jats in the central list falls under general category except the jats of rajasthan(excluding bharatpur and dholpur) and muslim jats of gujarat, see "the govt website of 'national commission for backward classes' the castes can be searched and their state wise entries can be seen"
Suggested Revision -
"The Jats, in most of the states in the central list, are considered a General caste (forward caste) [1] in India's system of positive discrimination. This means that they have no access to reservations, except the Jats of Rajasthan (excluding those of Bharatpur district and Dholpur district) and Muslim Jats of Gujarat – who are entitled to reservation of central government jobs under the OBC reservation. But they are classified as Other Backward Class (OBC) in the state list of seven of India's thirty-six States and UTs, namely Rajasthan, Himachal Pradesh, Delhi, Uttarakhand, Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh and Chhattisgarh.[2]"
The proposed version restructures the information to improve clarity by clearly stating their status at the central and state level.
- ^ "National commission for Backward Classes".
- ^ Saubhadra Chatterji (22 February 2016). "History repeats itself as yet another Central govt faces a Jat stir". Hindustan Times.
2409:40D6:1012:7B11:E80F:7C9:FDE1:ECFF (talk) 14:53, 21 February 2025 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 February 2025
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In the History section, after the following sentence "By the time of Muhammad bin Qasim's conquest of Sind in the eighth century, Arab writers described agglomerations of Jats, known to them as Zutt,[e] in the arid, the wet, and the mountainous regions of the conquered land of Sindh." please add the following (feel free to rephrase or condense as you deem fit):
Several medieval Muslim chronicles such as the Chach Nama, Tarikh-I-Baihaqi and Zainul-Akhbar have recorded battles between Jats and forces of Muhammad ibn al-Qasim,[1] at battle of Aror (Rohri), the united forces of King Dahir and the eastern Jats jointly fought against Muhammad ibn al-Qasim.[2] Thank you. 220.255.242.109 (talk) 18:09, 24 February 2025 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 February 2025
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In the list of jatt clans add chahal clan as well. 2607:FEA8:B70:1900:B545:FA2A:9D4C:E9AA (talk) 00:27, 26 February 2025 (UTC)
- I have done as you requested. I could not find a reliable source for this, but the not so good sources all confirmed that chahal is a jat clan. Furthermore, most clans in the list are unsourced.
Done Lova Falk (talk) 13:20, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 February 2025 (2)
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2607:FEA8:B70:1900:B545:FA2A:9D4C:E9AA (talk) 04:18, 26 February 2025 (UTC)
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Add additional information under brief historical overview for the Muslim Jats, just as it was done for Hindu Jats and Sikh Jats.
Add the Rohilla dynasty of Rohilkhand and Rampur, founded by the converted Muslim Jat Nawab Ali Mohammed Khan[3][4][5][6][7][8][9].
Add mention of Chitu Khan[10][11], an anti-British Pindari general who played an important role in the Third Anglo-Maratha war.
Fortuitus20 (talk) 23:55, 27 February 2025 (UTC)
- In addition:
- Add mention of the Langah dynasty[12] of the Multan Sultanate.
- Add the rebel Zutt principality in Basra, following the Capture of Basra. Fortuitus20 (talk) 00:00, 28 February 2025 (UTC)
- @Fortuitus20 Can you please explain on where to add this information? Warriorglance(talk to me) 12:21, 10 March 2025 (UTC)
References
- ^ Chapter by S Jabir Raza Passages in the Chachnama, Zainul-Akhbar And Tarikh-i-Baihaqi, Text and Translation, from the book The Jats, Their Role and contribution to the socio-Economic Life and Polity of North and North-West India, Volume 2, pp. 43–52
- ^ Wink, André (2002) [first published 1990], Al-Hind: The Making of the Indo-Islamic World, Vol 1: Early Medieval India and the Expansion of Islam, Brill, ISBN 9780391041738, pp=201–205.
- ^ Sastri, K. A. Nilakanta; Srinivasachari, G. (1971). Advanced history of India. Allied Publishers. p. 572. OCLC 976740387. "Ali Muhammad Khan, a converted Jat, built up a large principality with its seat at Aonla, 18 miles north-west of Bareilly city and gained recognition from the Delhi court."
- ^ Prasad, Ishwari (1973). India in the Eighteenth Century. Chugh Publications. p. 152. OCLC 732111. "Daud was an adventurer of considerable ability and warlike spirit and in a short time gathered around himself a large number of followers. Ali Muhammad who was born of Jat parents was brought up by him as a child and converted to Islam."
- ^ Gupta, Hari Ram (1999) [1980]. History of the Sikhs. Vol. III: Sikh Domination of the Mughal Empire (1764–1803) (2nd rev. ed.). Munshiram Manoharlal. p. 11. ISBN 978-81-215-0213-9. OCLC 165428303. "The real founder of the Rohilla power was Ali Muhammad, from whom sprang the present line of the Nawabs of Rampur. Originally a Hindu Jat, who was taken prisoner when a young boy by Daud in one of his plundering expeditions, at village Bankauli in the parganah of Chaumahla, and was converted to Islam and adopted by him."
- ^ Prasad, Bisheshwar (1978). "Ruhelkhand and Farrukhabad". In Banerjee, A. C.; Ghosh, D.K. (eds.). A Comprehensive History of India. Vol. 9 (1712–1772). People's Publishing House. p. 140. OCLC 1405593320. "There he is reported to have captured a Jat boy of about eight years whom he brought up as his son and named Ali Muhammad Khan, who lived to be his successor and the founder of the state of Ruhelkhand."
- ^ Rashid, Abdur (1957). "The Rohillas". In Husain, Mahmud; et al. (eds.). A History of the Freedom Movement. Vol. I: 1707–1831. Pakistan Historical Society. p. 304. OCLC 1129482853. "Amongst other prisoners he obtained a young Jat boy of eight years.1 Daud took a fancy to him and adopted him as his son and named him 'Ali Muhammad Khan."
- ^ Srivastava, Ashirbadi Lal (1954). The First Two Nawabs of Oudh (2nd rev. ed.). Shiva Lal Agarwala & Co. Ltd. p. 103. OCLC 678892685. "While in the service of Mudar Shah of Madhkar, 13 miles east of Chandausi, Daud took part in an expedition against the ruler of Bankauli, 26 miles north of Bareilly, where fell into his hands among other things a handsome Jat boy of seven or eight years of age. He converted the boy into Islam, named him Ali Muhammad Khan and adopted him as his son."
- ^ Khan, Iqbal Ghani (2002). "Technology and the Question of Elite Intervention in Eighteenth-Century North India". In Barnett, Richard B. (ed.). Rethinking Early Modern India. Manohar Publishers & Distributors. p. 271. ISBN 978-81-7304-308-6. "Thus we witness the Ruhelas accepting an exceptionally talented non-Afghan, an adopted Jat boy, as their nawab, purely on the basis of his military leadership; ..."
- ^ Martine van Woerkens (2002). The Strangled Traveler. University of Chicago Press. p. 25. ISBN 9780226850856.
- ^ Richard Gott (2011). Britain's Empire: Resistance, Repression and Revolt. Verso Books. p. 220. ISBN 9781844677382.
- ^ https://books.google.com/books?id=oeItAAAAMAAJ&q=Langah+Multan
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