Talk:Documentary hypothesis

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Monarchial source, etc.: articles needed

(Disclaimer: I have no formal background at all in any of this.)

This article is about how the Pentateuch/Torah arrived at its final form. But didn't Samuel/Kings arrive at its final form by a somewhat similar process?

Just as the DH (and its variants) has proposed J, E, P and D sources, aren't there also proposed sources such as "Monarchial" and "Republican" (or "Anti-monarchial") for Samuel/Kings? Indeed, while Wellhausen is most famously linked to the DH/Pentateuch, I seem to recall also seeing his name linked for analogous work in Samuel/Kings.

It seems that some sort of article, even if only "start" class, for this would be useful.

Would someone like to have a go? Alternatively, if you can provide online pointers to suitable reliable sources, I might be able to try it myself.

Feline Hymnic (talk) 21:17, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a Bible-edition that marks the different texts?

I'm no scholar, but if the scholarly consensus is, the texts are not one text, I want to look at at least a close approximation of the current consensus as an outsider. Can I, or this is some secret stuff the priests will never let you access? 89.134.17.89 (talk) 10:42, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The scholarly consensus is that the Pentateuch is, by far, not the work of a single person, let alone Moses. Everything else is disputed, so there is not going to be an agreed Bible according to the Documentary Hypothesis, or to the supplemental model, or to whatever. tgeorgescu (talk) 11:23, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Like @Tgeorgescu said, there's not exact consensus on the sources, but one version of this exists here: https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Bible/King_James/Documentary_Hypothesis Huz and Buz (talk) 19:20, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The scholars seem to agree that there is some some editing from multiple sources, but equally disagree on the details. Here's another visualisation of the general idea: https://religion.fandom.com/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis#After_Wellhausen Feline Hymnic (talk) 19:40, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Quoted andat Ten Commandments page

Just a note that I use this quote and connected references at the Ten Commandments page. “The consensus around the classical documentary hypothesis has now collapsed. This was triggered in large part by the influential publications of John Van Seters, Hans Heinrich Schmid, and Rolf Rendtorff in the mid-1970s.” IncandescentBliss (talk) 00:38, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In title: Quoted at* IncandescentBliss (talk) 00:38, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Who said "the assured results of modern scholarship"?

As I read material on the documentary hypothesis, etc., I repeatedly find this phrase, often in quotes: "the assured results of modern scholarship." It was clearly pre-20th century. Does anybody know who originated it. It is quoted so many places, it deserves to be mentioned. But who wrote it first, or even second or third? Pete unseth (talk) 22:27, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Scholarly sources addressing the assumption of atheism in the DH.

Is anyone aware of any scholars that address the assumption that all authors and redactors were atheists? It may not be explicitly stated, but it's the only way the hypothesis works. If they believed that God dictated the Pentateuch to Moses, the idea that they would think to alter it, especially in a such a large way, seems unlikely. It couldn't have just been a small handful of non-believers either, it would've required a good chunk of the priestly class to either not believe in God or be willing to lie about what God has said. Ask someone of an Abrahamic religion who believes in inerrancy if they would accept a copy of the Torah/Bible/Quran that has been edited to tell a more cohesive story. Is there any source that addresses this? Blast335 (talk) 23:08, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. If you read your comment, you'll notice that you've assumed that a contemporary theology of "inerrancy" (not to mention a post-canonical knowledge of the bible) was known to the composers of biblical texts. Scholars do not assume that contemporary theologies were in vogue 2500 years ago, but rather that it is possible to believe in a god and still not be bound to the "inerrancy" you seem to have in mind. Anyway, I am not familiar with scholars who assume atheistic authors of scripture. ProfGray (talk) 02:57, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death." Deuteronomy 18:20. The Pentateuch claims to be written by Moses at the direction of God, which means that the Pentateuch explicitly claims to be the words of God and explicitly condemns to death those who say that God said something that God has not said. Inerrancy in its modern form may not have existed, but the idea that you don't change God's words is just the natural conclusion of passages like this. Blast335 (talk) 14:12, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You work deductively. Mainstream Bible scholars work inductively. See Jesus, Interrupted. tgeorgescu (talk) 16:30, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi again. You wrote "the idea that you don't change God's words is just the natural conclusion of passages like this." It's great if that inference feels natural to you, but that doesn't happen to be how historians understand the history of inerrancy and the handling of ancient Israelite literature. In any case, you might search Google Scholar (or other academic databases) and if you find a scholar of Biblical literature who addresses your question, then it'd be suitable for Wikipedia. Right? ProfGray (talk) 17:23, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]